Loco liveries 1903 1923

[Ian Scott]

I have an "O" gauge gateneal 2-4-0 Tank Beyer Peacock loco kit, recently acquired from a model show, built to a high standard, but unfinished !

I wish to know the livery(ies) of the loco's from 1903 (1916) to 1923 in order to finish this model,

I am aware that some of these loco's were sold to the war dep't in 1916 but one passed in LMS ownership becoming LMS 290.

The livery pre 1903 was Crimson Red.

[John Jennings]

Ian

During the 1960's I had a number of chats with former SMJ workers and my notes confirm that the locos were painted black. One then very elderly ex driver used the term "North Western Black". I have had sight of some correspondence between the company and Beyer Peacock concerning loco 18 that mentions "standard goods livery" surely this can only mean black! You will be aware that for a very small company the SMJ sacrificed a significant percentage of its workforce during the Great War. I was told that loco cleaning had to be suspended on many occasions due to lack of manpower. Those men that were available were needed to keep the few working locos running. It does not appear to be known when, if ever, the livery on the 2-4-0's was changed. I suspect that they were never repainted but would love to hear if anyone knows otherwise.

John

[David Wellstood]

Ian,

I have found some relevant information in J.M.Dunn's book about the SMJ published in 1952.
It sounds to me that the loco you are modelling would be SMJ loco no. 5 or 6 which were both built in 1883/4.

Concerning the livery of the locos, the book states the following:

" Prior to 1903 EWJR locomotives were crimson lake with panels lined in black and edged both sides with yellow. 2-4-0 No.13 arrived in a dark blue and the next five engines appeared in that colour. Metal number plates were affixed to cabsides and a similar plate also proclaimed EWJR ownership. Some engines had cabside plates with 'E & W' in addition to the number.
The SMJ changed to a plain black livery, having relief in the form of green and yellow lining; the numberplates remained but the letters 'S M J' were painted on the tenders (or tank sides) in gold. Some engines also showed their SMJR power classification letter on the front buffer beam."

Some also had their number on the front buffer beam as can be seen from this not too brilliant photo of nr. 6 at Stratford.

I hope that this answers your question.
Coincidentally I am presently building the same model locomotive in gauge 1.
Kind regards and the best of luck finishing your model.

David Wellstood.

[Simon Dunkley]

It partly depends on the specific fittings you have.

If the model is in "as built" condition, with safety valves connected to a bell topped dome, then the likelihood is that it will be in crimson lake, lined with yellow/black/yellow with reversed corners, with an E&W plate on the side tanks and a number plate on the bunker, like this (albeit my corners are not reversed - incorrect information when the builder lined it!):

If the dome is a simpler, rounded, shape with safety valves over the firebox, then the loco is most likely to be in SMJ livery, i.e. glossy black with yellow/green/yellow lining. This is the condition the locos were in after reboilering, but it would also apply for a few months to them in EWJR condition.

In between about 1903 and 1907, number 5 at least seems to have had a new cab spectacle plate fitted with smaller windows. What the livery would be then I have no idea as the only photos I have are in black and white(!).

Neither of the 2-4-0 tanks passed into LMS ownership, both going to the War Department: 290 was the 2-4-0 tender loco, but this was quickly scrapped.

Hope that helps - as well as Dunn's book, Simpson and Riley is of some help, although I think some of the "facts" in the latter are suspect as they do not tie up with other sources, including Beyer, Peacock drawings.

Simon

[Ian Scott]

John,
Many thanks for your reply, I think that this loco will be painted crimson red, if they were repainted; possibly unlikely & due to their low useage & being sold off to the WD in 1916, their appearance may well have been heavily weathered especially with manpwer shortages in WW1.

John Jennings said:

Ian

During the 1960's I had a number of chats with former SMJ workers and my notes confirm that the locos were painted black. One then very elderly ex driver used the term "North Western Black". I have had sight of some correspondence between the company and Beyer Peacock concerning loco 18 that mentions "standard goods livery" surely this can only mean black! You will be aware that for a very small company the SMJ sacrificed a significant percentage of its workforce during the Great War. I was told that loco cleaning had to be suspended on many occasions due to lack of manpower. Those men that were available were needed to keep the few working locos running. It does not appear to be known when, if ever, the livery on the 2-4-0's was changed. I suspect that they were never repainted but would love to hear if anyone knows otherwise.

John

[Ian Scott]

Dave,
Many thanks for your reply, I think that this loco will be painted crimson red, if they were repainted; possibly unlikely & due to their low useage & being sold off to the WD in 1916, their appearance may well have been heavily weathered especially with manpwer shortages in WW1.

[Ian Scott]

Gents,
Many thanks for your replies, I will await any further details, but more other questions soon!

[Ian Scott]

Simon,
I made my replies before I had seen your photograph of your loco !
Co-incidently the kit (as built) does not entirely match the appearance of your model but; noting your comments, I will 'hold fire' until I do a bit more research & await any further details, especu#ially tour comments on re-boilering etc, with the scarcity of photo's generally, I've only todate seen rwo b+w pictures (downloaded) that show the loco's appearance which I suspect is what the kit was in all probability made to represent.
But I will await further info, many rhanks for youe reply.

Regularity said:

It partly depends on the specific fittings you have.

If the model is in "as built" condition, with safety valves connected to a bell topped dome, then the likelihood is that it will be in crimson lake, lined with yellow/black/yellow with reversed corners, with an E&W plate on the side tanks and a number plate on the bunker, like this (albeit my corners are not reversed - incorrect information when the builder lined it!):

If the dome is a simpler, rounded, shape with safety valves over the firebox, then the loco is most likely to be in SMJ livery, i.e. glossy black with yellow/green/yellow lining. This is the condition the locos were in after reboilering, but it would also apply for a few months to them in EWJR condition.

In between about 1903 and 1907, number 5 at least seems to have had a new cab spectacle plate fitted with smaller windows. What the livery would be then I have no idea as the only photos I have are in black and white(!).

Neither of the 2-4-0 tanks passed into LMS ownership, both going to the War Department: 290 was the 2-4-0 tender loco, but this was quickly scrapped.

Hope that helps - as well as Dunn's book, Simpson and Riley is of some help, although I think some of the "facts" in the latter are suspect as they do not tie up with other sources, including Beyer, Peacock drawings.

Simon

[Simon Dunkley]

Hi Ian,

The Gateneal kit is for the loco in later condition, from what I have seen of it and what you say. It may have run in EWJR guise, but if so not for long. The obvious colour would therefore be a glossy black, with the yellow/green/yellow lining and lettered SMJ. Nigel Digby did a painting of this to illustrate his article on SMJR liveries in British Railway Modelling, back in June or July 1998, I think.

My model was built about 20 years ago by the late Norman Pattenden, to drawings in Model Railway News by Tom Lindsay. He built it for his projected MSWJR layout, and when he went off that, offered the loco to me for a very reasonable sum. I had to remove the MSWJ lettering, which made the paint underneath a bit thin, hence the weathering on the loco. I also fitted up the Westinghouse pump. This is all ironic as of the MSWJR (or its forerunners) ordered 3 locos and could only pay for one, the other two going to the EWJR.

Talk about (modelling) art imitating life...

Simon

[Ian Scott]

Simon,
On closer examination of your colour photo plus Two-downloaded b+w photo’s on my computer.
I will now agree that the Gateneal kit is pretty much the later condition as you have pointed out; therefore this loco’s later livery can in reality only be the glossy black with appropriate SMJ lining/lettering, this particular livery & detail of which I unaware of prior to my initial enquiry with yourselves in the SMJ society.
Coincidently the other model loco’s on my layout are LNWR varieties in their lined black livery; but I am aware that the LNWR did sell a few loco’s second hand to the SMJ.
May I thank you & your colleagues for your kind assistances in resolving these initial detail questions for me & all being well I will endeavour to see you at your stand at Stoke Bruerne later this year; undoubtedly with more questions!



Regularity said:

Hi Ian,

The Gateneal kit is for the loco in later condition, from what I have seen of it and what you say. It may have run in EWJR guise, but if so not for long. The obvious colour would therefore be a glossy black, with the yellow/green/yellow lining and lettered SMJ. Nigel Digby did a painting of this to illustrate his article on SMJR liveries in British Railway Modelling, back in June or July 1998, I think.

My model was built about 20 years ago by the late Norman Pattenden, to drawings in Model Railway News by Tom Lindsay. He built it for his projected MSWJR layout, and when he went off that, offered the loco to me for a very reasonable sum. I had to remove the MSWJ lettering, which made the paint underneath a bit thin, hence the weathering on the loco. I also fitted up the Westinghouse pump. This is all ironic as of the MSWJR (or its forerunners) ordered 3 locos and could only pay for one, the other two going to the EWJR.

Talk about (modelling) art imitating life...

Simon

[Peter James Phillips]

Does anyone know precisely how the Terriers were painted on the EHLR ? Tonks says 'earlier Southern livery' which on first sight does not make sense as the EHLR got them in 1919/20. Could he mean the LSWR sage green that Maunsell introduced to the Southern initially or perhaps the Eastleigh dark olive or Ashford light olive that followed. Tonks may simply have been drawing comparisons. Also Tonks says they were edged black, lined white but the photos taken outside Stratford shed don't seem to feature any edging or lining at all. Were they in fact painted at Stratford rather than Brighton (bearing in mind the strange E.H.L.T.R. Query because a friend of mine wants to repaint his WCPR/GWR A1X in EHLR colours.