Would the GCR have gone via Towcester? - The SMJ Society2024-03-29T00:43:02Zhttp://thesmjr.ning.com/forum/topics/would-the-gcr-have-gone-via-towcester?commentId=3138568%3AComment%3A174333&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noJim,
I totally agree that the…tag:thesmjr.ning.com,2021-04-18:3138568:Comment:1743332021-04-18T11:53:16.504ZAndrew Emmersonhttp://thesmjr.ning.com/profile/AndrewEmmerson
<p>Jim,</p>
<p>I totally agree that there was plenty of room for an extra track, not only on the down side as you point out but also on the up side, which was built as a siding on which the redundant Starlight Special coaches were stored in the early sixties. </p>
<p>In fact, it looks to me as if the GCR made provision for through of by-pass lines in both directions, so that --- if traffic levels increased --- expresses could rush through Brackley uninhibited by the 'turnback' trains that…</p>
<p>Jim,</p>
<p>I totally agree that there was plenty of room for an extra track, not only on the down side as you point out but also on the up side, which was built as a siding on which the redundant Starlight Special coaches were stored in the early sixties. </p>
<p>In fact, it looks to me as if the GCR made provision for through of by-pass lines in both directions, so that --- if traffic levels increased --- expresses could rush through Brackley uninhibited by the 'turnback' trains that terminated at Brackley. From an operational perspective, this all made perfect sense. </p>
<p>On the other hand, if the GCR had even the slightest intention to make Brackley a junction station, it would have made provision for a means for passengers to reach this notional extra platform. As things were, there was not any room to spare at upper level to create a landing for an additional staircase. The circulating area was quite modest, with the booking office and the SM's office on your right and the lockup 'cage' for parcels and bicycles on the left. Straight ahead was the footbridge. </p>
<p>To create a 'Northampton platform' would have involved major reconstruction to the station building, whilst at track level the GCR would have had to make vast excavations for the diverging tracks to Northampton in the cutting north of the station.</p>
<p>And to what avail? Northampton was already served by two LNW stations and one Midland Railway, providing a direct service to London with frequent trains. The GCR could not realistically hope to tap off any of this traffic along a longer, roundabout route to London via Brackley, involving a change of trains and a wait at a station that had neither a refreshment room or a bookstall. Local traffic between Brackley and Northampton would not be great; most locals looked to Buckingham and Banbury for doing shopping that Brackley shops could not handle (the bottom station in Brackley offered a direct service to those two towns). </p>
<p>By and large, the GCR was interested in the bigger and more lucrative picture of' long-distance passenger and freight traffic in the 1890/1900 era. Why would be interested in a tuppenny-hapenny feeder service from Northampton, especially one constructed through quite heavy terrain?</p>
<p>I am not trying to be a contrarian or trying to stop discussion of might-have-beens. But I feel I must emphasize that the Northampton platform story is a myth (the Wikipedia article <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brackley_Central_railway_station" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brackley_Central_railway_station</a> also points out that the so-called platform <span>t it appears to be located on the "wrong side" of the station, since Northampton-bound trains would have had to cross the main running lines in order to access the branch). It was just a schoolboy joke made to impress his friends!</span></p>
<p>Sincerely,</p>
<p>Andrew Emmerson.<br/> <br/> <cite>Jim Goodman said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.smj.me/forum/topics/would-the-gcr-have-gone-via-towcester?commentId=3138568%3AComment%3A174331&xg_source=msg_com_forum#3138568Comment174331"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hi Andrew,</p>
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<p>It's always interesting to get a new, and different, view on an old subject. The only point I'd like to make is the unusually large gap between the buildings and the platforms, as seen in this photo by HC Casserley. There certainly looks enough room to get another line and platform in:-</p>
<p><a href="https://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/8806436693?profile=original" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><img src="https://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/8806436693?profile=RESIZE_710x" class="align-full"/></a></p>
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</blockquote> Hi Andrew,
It's always inter…tag:thesmjr.ning.com,2021-04-18:3138568:Comment:1743312021-04-18T08:49:42.564ZJim Goodmanhttp://thesmjr.ning.com/profile/JamesMarkGoodman
<p>Hi Andrew,</p>
<p></p>
<p>It's always interesting to get a new, and different, view on an old subject. The only point I'd like to make is the unusually large gap between the buildings and the platforms, as seen in this photo by HC Casserley. There certainly looks enough room to get another line and platform in:-…</p>
<p><a href="https://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/8806436693?profile=original" rel="noopener" target="_blank"><img class="align-full" src="https://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/8806436693?profile=RESIZE_710x"></img></a></p>
<p>Hi Andrew,</p>
<p></p>
<p>It's always interesting to get a new, and different, view on an old subject. The only point I'd like to make is the unusually large gap between the buildings and the platforms, as seen in this photo by HC Casserley. There certainly looks enough room to get another line and platform in:-</p>
<p><a href="https://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/8806436693?profile=original" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><img src="https://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/8806436693?profile=RESIZE_710x" class="align-full"/></a></p> That’s rather a dismissive st…tag:thesmjr.ning.com,2021-04-17:3138568:Comment:1742352021-04-17T19:35:30.568ZSimon Dunkleyhttp://thesmjr.ning.com/profile/Regularity
<p>That’s rather a dismissive statement. I have seen references occasionally to this - it would fit with the politicking associated with building new lines (“Give us running powers between A and B, and we will drop our ‘proposals’ for a line to C”) - and find it hard to believe that nearly 60 years later, a claim is suddenly made about a schoolboy dreaming it all up.</p>
<p>Mind you, I always thought Peter Denny missed a trick there with his “Buckingham” model railway: a branch from the London…</p>
<p>That’s rather a dismissive statement. I have seen references occasionally to this - it would fit with the politicking associated with building new lines (“Give us running powers between A and B, and we will drop our ‘proposals’ for a line to C”) - and find it hard to believe that nearly 60 years later, a claim is suddenly made about a schoolboy dreaming it all up.</p>
<p>Mind you, I always thought Peter Denny missed a trick there with his “Buckingham” model railway: a branch from the London Extension to Northampton does strike me as slightly more likely that to Buckingham.<br/> <br/> <cite>Andrew Emmerson said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://thesmjr.ning.com/forum/topics/would-the-gcr-have-gone-via-towcester#3138568Comment174324"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>The Northampton line was a fanciful notion spread in the early 1960s by a boy in the same school as me in Brackley. The so-called 'platform' was just a storage area used by the P. Way people and could not be reached from upstairs. The only way to get to it was by crossing the footbridge, walking along the platform to the end and then cross the down line.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Andrew Emmerson.<br/> <br/> <cite>NIGEL said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://thesmjr.ning.com/forum/topics/would-the-gcr-have-gone-via-towcester#3138568Comment72317"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1490441740?profile=original" target="_self"><img width="589" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1490441740?profile=original"/></a>Brackley Station site from the platform side, showing the grassy bank at bottom left which is the surviving remnant of the Northampton branch platform, that was not finished.</p>
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</blockquote> The Northampton line was a fa…tag:thesmjr.ning.com,2021-04-17:3138568:Comment:1743242021-04-17T13:19:02.436ZAndrew Emmersonhttp://thesmjr.ning.com/profile/AndrewEmmerson
<p>The Northampton line was a fanciful notion spread in the early 1960s by a boy in the same school as me in Brackley. The so-called 'platform' was just a storage area used by the P. Way people and could not be reached from upstairs. The only way to get to it was by crossing the footbridge, walking along the platform to the end and then cross the down line.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Andrew Emmerson.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>NIGEL said:…</cite></p>
<p>The Northampton line was a fanciful notion spread in the early 1960s by a boy in the same school as me in Brackley. The so-called 'platform' was just a storage area used by the P. Way people and could not be reached from upstairs. The only way to get to it was by crossing the footbridge, walking along the platform to the end and then cross the down line.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Andrew Emmerson.<br/> <br/> <cite>NIGEL said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://thesmjr.ning.com/forum/topics/would-the-gcr-have-gone-via-towcester#3138568Comment72317"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1490441740?profile=original" target="_self"><img width="589" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1490441740?profile=original"/></a>Brackley Station site from the platform side, showing the grassy bank at bottom left which is the surviving remnant of the Northampton branch platform, that was not finished.</p>
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</blockquote> The Metropolitan Railway, ext…tag:thesmjr.ning.com,2017-01-14:3138568:Comment:733982017-01-14T20:20:33.752ZNIGELhttp://thesmjr.ning.com/profile/NIGELALANFURNISS
<p>The Metropolitan Railway, extension to Moreton Pinkney. Charles Liddell, engineer. Deposited 30th November 1889.</p>
<p>Railway no.1. From a junction with the East & West Junction Railway in Canons Ashby; through Moreton Pinkney, Sulgrave, Helmdon, Wappenham, Radstone, Brackley, Westbury and on to Quainton.</p>
<p>Railway no.3. From a junction with the East & West Junction Railway, terminating in a junction with Railway no.1, all in Moreton Pinkney.</p>
<p>Railway no 4 & 5. From…</p>
<p>The Metropolitan Railway, extension to Moreton Pinkney. Charles Liddell, engineer. Deposited 30th November 1889.</p>
<p>Railway no.1. From a junction with the East & West Junction Railway in Canons Ashby; through Moreton Pinkney, Sulgrave, Helmdon, Wappenham, Radstone, Brackley, Westbury and on to Quainton.</p>
<p>Railway no.3. From a junction with the East & West Junction Railway, terminating in a junction with Railway no.1, all in Moreton Pinkney.</p>
<p>Railway no 4 & 5. From a junction with the Northampton & Banbury Junction Railway near Helmdon Station, to a junction with Railway no.1, all in Helmdon.</p>
<p>Note that in the last statement the junction near Helmdon Station was to be ALL in Helmdon, perhaps you were on the right 'track' after all.</p> Brackley Central Station (bui…tag:thesmjr.ning.com,2017-01-10:3138568:Comment:733012017-01-10T20:07:49.956ZNIGELhttp://thesmjr.ning.com/profile/NIGELALANFURNISS
<p>Brackley Central Station (built 1897 by the Rugby firm J. PARNELL & SON) was unique on the line. The MSLR had hoped to use the (A43) bridge for public access to the platform, but local opposition meant that the booking office had to be built on the embankment overlooking the line. The platform was reached by a footbridge spanning the down line, instead of a staircase from the centre of the station bridge (no.525).</p>
<p>The MSLR planned to build a locomotive shed and workshop at…</p>
<p>Brackley Central Station (built 1897 by the Rugby firm J. PARNELL & SON) was unique on the line. The MSLR had hoped to use the (A43) bridge for public access to the platform, but local opposition meant that the booking office had to be built on the embankment overlooking the line. The platform was reached by a footbridge spanning the down line, instead of a staircase from the centre of the station bridge (no.525).</p>
<p>The MSLR planned to build a locomotive shed and workshop at Brackley, but was opposed by the Squire of Turweston, John Locke Stratton, Mayor and major landowner in the area. The MSL decided to construct their engine depot at Woodford, some 10 miles north.</p>
<p>Opposite the down side platform, on an official plan of Brackley Central Station, the words</p>
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<p> "FUTURE PLATFORM"</p>
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<p> should be noted.</p> On a group on Facebook regard…tag:thesmjr.ning.com,2017-01-10:3138568:Comment:731032017-01-10T09:51:50.485ZGaryhttp://thesmjr.ning.com/profile/Gary
<p>On a group on Facebook regarding the GCR and the remains, the fact that the platform is effectively on the wrong side of the line was raised. I believe that trains from Northampton would use the main platform then once empty re-position and wait at this platform thus leaving the mainlines clear.<br/>According to the same source, no act was ever presented so the line was only ever a dream that was never documented. <br/><br/></p>
<p>On a group on Facebook regarding the GCR and the remains, the fact that the platform is effectively on the wrong side of the line was raised. I believe that trains from Northampton would use the main platform then once empty re-position and wait at this platform thus leaving the mainlines clear.<br/>According to the same source, no act was ever presented so the line was only ever a dream that was never documented. <br/><br/></p> It would appear indeed that t…tag:thesmjr.ning.com,2017-01-01:3138568:Comment:729942017-01-01T20:41:07.107ZGaryhttp://thesmjr.ning.com/profile/Gary
<p>It would appear indeed that they had a potential vested interest Dick.</p>
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<p><br/>A quick look on the map I would think the line would have run from near Radstone to between Wappenham and Helmdon. I wonder if there would have been some rebuilding of stations?</p>
<p>It would appear indeed that they had a potential vested interest Dick.</p>
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<p><br/>A quick look on the map I would think the line would have run from near Radstone to between Wappenham and Helmdon. I wonder if there would have been some rebuilding of stations?</p> During the construction of th…tag:thesmjr.ning.com,2016-12-23:3138568:Comment:725972016-12-23T14:43:17.666ZDick Bodilyhttp://thesmjr.ning.com/profile/Dick
<p>During the construction of the Great Central a very steeply graded temporary link was laid from the E&WJR to the site of Helmdon (GCR) station purely for bringing in heavy materials for construction of the GCR.</p>
<p>I can't find any suggestion of a GCR line to Northampton in such works as George Dow's monumental 3 volume 'Great Central', but I believe the Northampton and Banbury did consider a direct route from near Blisworth over the West Coast actually to reach…</p>
<p>During the construction of the Great Central a very steeply graded temporary link was laid from the E&WJR to the site of Helmdon (GCR) station purely for bringing in heavy materials for construction of the GCR.</p>
<p>I can't find any suggestion of a GCR line to Northampton in such works as George Dow's monumental 3 volume 'Great Central', but I believe the Northampton and Banbury did consider a direct route from near Blisworth over the West Coast actually to reach Northampton.</p>
<p>The GCR did seem interested in the E &WJR at one time, with several prominent Great Central investors acquiring East & West shares. C W Bartholomew, son of a GC director, held enough E&WJR shares to be allowed unofficially to frequently drive trains on the line and also to take his miniature railway under the E&WJR's bridge alongside their main line track at Blakesley! It was all leading to a possible GCR route to Birmingham via a doubled track E&WJR and Stratford Old Town, either from Woodford West or from near Morton Pinkney, but which the GCR soon abandoned when they joined forces with the GWR to build the joint line through Wycombe in order to avoid relying on the Metropolitan Railway as their sole access to the London area.</p>
<p>Another link between the SMJR and GCR was Mr Wilmott who prior to taking over directorship of the E&WJR ( soon to be SMJR) had been Sheffield area manager of the GCR, his son also became a GCR area manager.</p> I take your point about the d…tag:thesmjr.ning.com,2016-12-22:3138568:Comment:727942016-12-22T21:21:25.173ZJim Goodmanhttp://thesmjr.ning.com/profile/JamesMarkGoodman
<p>I take your point about the different elevations, about 60ft if my memory is correct. That would need over a mile of 1 in 100 so, as you say, it would be impossible within Helmdon, but perhaps to the south of the village over a longer distance. </p>
<p>Sadly we will never know their thoughts, but in those days they often built thinking of the future (most of the SMJ was engineered for double track) so perhaps we are reading too much into that platform. </p>
<p>Still, an interesting 'what…</p>
<p>I take your point about the different elevations, about 60ft if my memory is correct. That would need over a mile of 1 in 100 so, as you say, it would be impossible within Helmdon, but perhaps to the south of the village over a longer distance. </p>
<p>Sadly we will never know their thoughts, but in those days they often built thinking of the future (most of the SMJ was engineered for double track) so perhaps we are reading too much into that platform. </p>
<p>Still, an interesting 'what if', even if Dr Beeching would have closed it!</p>
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